תענית דף ד

עורפילא — אפילו לפרצידא דתותי קלא מהניא ליה. מאי עורפילא — עורו פילי. ואמר רבא: האי צורבא מרבנן דמי לפרצידא דתותי קלא, דכיון דנבט — נבט.

and drizzle [urpila] is even beneficial to a seed [partzida] under a clod of earth, as it can reach anywhere without causing any harm. The Gemara asks: What is the meaning of the word drizzle? The Gemara explains: It is a contraction of the phrase: Arise, furrows [uru pilei]. And the Gemara cites another saying in which Rava uses the same imagery. Rava said: This Torah scholar [tzurva] is like a seed under a clod of earth, as once he sprouts and begins to develop, he continues to sprout and his greatness increases.

ואמר רבא: האי צורבא מרבנן דרתח — אורייתא הוא דקא מרתחא ליה, שנאמר: ״הלוא כה דברי כאש נאם ה׳״, ואמר רב אשי:

§ And, incidentally, the Gemara relates that which Rava said: This Torah scholar who grows angry, it can be presumed that it is his Torah study that angers him. Therefore, he must be given the benefit of the doubt, as it is stated: “Is not my word like fire, says the Lord” (Jeremiah 23:29). And similarly, Rav Ashi said: Any Torah scholar who is not as hard as iron, but is indecisive and wavers, he is not a Torah scholar, as it is stated in the same verse: “And as a hammer that breaks rock in pieces” (Jeremiah 23:29).

כל תלמיד חכם שאינו קשה כברזל — אינו תלמיד חכם, שנאמר: ״וכפטיש יפצץ סלע״.

אמר ליה רבי אבא לרב אשי: אתון, מהתם מתניתו לה. אנן, מהכא מתנינן לה, דכתיב: ״ארץ אשר אבניה ברזל״, אל תקרי ״אבניה״, אלא בוניה. אמר רבינא: אפילו הכי,

Rabbi Abba said to Rav Ashi: You learned the proof for this idea from that verse there; we learned it from here, as it is written: “A land whose stones [avaneha] are iron” (Deuteronomy 8:9). Do not read this phrase as “whose stones [avaneha],” rather, read it as whose builders [boneha], since Torah scholars build the land spiritually and are as tough as iron. With regard to these statements praising the toughness of a Torah scholar, Ravina said: And even so, one is required to teach himself to act gently, as it is stated: “And remove anger from your heart, and put away evil from your flesh” (Ecclesiastes 11:10).

מיבעי ליה לאיניש למילף נפשיה בניחותא, שנאמר: ״והסר כעס מלבך וגו׳״.

אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני אמר רבי יונתן: שלשה שאלו שלא כהוגן, לשנים השיבוהו כהוגן, לאחד השיבוהו שלא כהוגן. ואלו הן: אליעזר עבד אברהם,

As a preamble to the statement of Rabbi Berekhya, below, the Gemara cites that which Rabbi Shmuel bar Naḥmani said that Rabbi Yonatan said: Three people entreated God in an unreasonable manner, i.e., in situations where their requests might have received an unfavorable answer. To two of them God responded reasonably, with a favorable response to their requests, and to one God responded unreasonably, i.e., unfavorably, in a manner befitting the unreasonable request. And they are: Eliezer, servant of Abraham; Saul, son of Kish; and Jephthah the Gileadite.

ושאול בן קיש, ויפתח הגלעדי.

אליעזר עבד אברהם — דכתיב: ״והיה הנערה אשר אמר אליה הטי נא כדך וגו׳״, יכול אפילו חיגרת, אפילו סומא. השיבו כהוגן, ונזדמנה לו רבקה.

The Gemara clarifies each of these cases in turn: With regard to Eliezer, servant of Abraham, he made a request when he prayed beside the well, as it is written: “That the maiden to whom I shall say: Please let down your pitcher that I may drink; and she shall say: Drink, and I will also give your camels to drink; that she be the one whom you have appointed for your servant Isaac” (Genesis 24:14). Eliezer entreated God unreasonably, as his request allowed for the possibility that she might even be lame or even blind, and yet he had promised to take her to Isaac. Nevertheless, God responded to him reasonably and the eminently suitable Rebecca happened to come to him.

שאול בן קיש — דכתיב: ״והיה האיש אשר יכנו יעשרנו המלך עשר גדול ואת בתו יתן לו״, יכול אפילו עבד, אפילו ממזר. השיבו כהוגן, ונזדמן לו דוד.

With regard to Saul, son of Kish, he made an offer when Goliath the Philistine challenged the Jews, as it is written: “And it shall be that the man who kills him, the king will enrich him with great riches, and will give him his daughter” (I Samuel 17:25). The man who killed Goliath might even have been a slave or a mamzer, one born from an incestuous or adulterous union, who would be unfit to marry his daughter. Nevertheless, God responded to him reasonably and David happened to come to him.

יפתח הגלעדי — דכתיב: ״והיה היוצא אשר יצא מדלתי ביתי וגו׳״, יכול אפילו דבר טמא. השיבו שלא כהוגן, נזדמנה לו בתו.

By contrast, there is the case of Jephthah the Gileadite. Upon leaving for battle he issued a statement, as it is written: “Then it shall be that whatever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace…it shall be to the Lord and I will bring it up for a burnt-offering” (Judges 11:31). This might even have been an impure, non-kosher animal, which he had committed himself to sacrifice. In this instance, God responded to him unreasonably, and his daughter happened to come to him.

והיינו דקאמר להו נביא לישראל: ״הצרי אין בגלעד אם רפא אין שם״.

Regarding the incident of Jephthah, the Gemara remarks: And this is what the prophet said to the Jewish people: “Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then has the health of the daughter of my people not recovered?” (Jeremiah 8:22). This verse alludes to the fact that had he sought a means to do so, Jephthah could have had his vow annulled.

וכתיב: ״אשר לא צויתי ולא דברתי ולא עלתה על לבי״,

And it is written, with regard to human sacrifice: “And they have also built the high places of the Ba’al, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt offerings to Ba’al, which I did not command, and I did not speak, nor did it come into My heart” (Jeremiah 19:5).

״אשר לא צויתי״ — זה בנו של מישע מלך מואב, שנאמר: ״ויקח את בנו הבכור אשר ימלך תחתיו ויעלהו עלה״; ״ולא דברתי״ — זה יפתח;

The Gemara interprets each phrase of this verse: “Which I did not command,” this is referring to the son of Mesha, king of Moab. King Mesha sacrificed his son, as it is stated: “Then he took his firstborn son, who would reign after him, and he offered him as a burnt-offering” (II Kings 3:27). “And I did not speak,” this is referring to Jephthah, who sacrificed his daughter as an offering. “Nor did it come into my heart,” this is referring to Isaac, son of Abraham. Although God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, there was no intent in God’s heart that he should actually do so; it was merely a test.

״ולא עלתה על לבי״ — זה יצחק בן אברהם.

אמר רבי ברכיה: אף כנסת ישראל שאלה שלא כהוגן, והקדוש ברוך הוא השיבה כהוגן, שנאמר: ״ונדעה נרדפה לדעת את ה׳ כשחר נכון מצאו ויבוא כגשם לנו״,

§ In light of the above statement, the Gemara returns to the issue of rain. Rabbi Berekhya said: The Congregation of Israel also entreated God unreasonably, and yet the Holy One, Blessed be He, responded reasonably, as it is stated: “And let us know, eagerly strive to know the Lord. His going forth is sure as the morning, and He will come to us as the rain” (Hosea 6:3). They compared the revelation of God to the rain.

אמר לה הקדוש ברוך הוא: בתי, את שואלת דבר שפעמים מתבקש ופעמים אינו מתבקש, אבל אני אהיה לך דבר המתבקש לעולם, שנאמר: ״אהיה כטל לישראל״.

In response, the Holy One, Blessed be He, said to the Jewish people: My daughter, you request the manifestation of My Presence by comparing Me to a matter, rain, that is sometimes desired, but is sometimes undesired, e.g., during the summer. However, I will be to you like a matter that is always desired, dew, as it is stated: “I will be as the dew to Israel” (Hosea 14:6), since dew appears in all seasons and is invariably a blessing.

ועוד שאלה שלא כהוגן, אמרה לפניו: רבונו של עולם! ״שימני כחותם על לבך כחותם על זרועך״, אמר לה הקדוש ברוך הוא: בתי,

And the Congregation of Israel further entreated God unreasonably in another context, saying before Him: Master of the Universe: “Set me as a seal upon Your heart, as a seal upon Your arm” (Song of Songs 8:6). The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to her: My daughter, you ask that I be manifest to you in a matter that is sometimes visible and sometimes not visible, as the heart and arm are not covered. However, I will act so that I manifest Myself for you like a matter that is always visible, as it is stated: “Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of My hands, your walls are continually before me” (Isaiah 49:16).

את שואלת דבר שפעמים נראה ופעמים אינו נראה, אבל אני אעשה לך דבר שנראה לעולם, שנאמר: ״הן על כפים חקתיך״.

אין שואלין את הגשמים כו׳. סברוה: שאלה והזכרה חדא מילתא היא, מאן תנא? אמר רבא: רבי יהושע היא, דאמר משעת הנחתו.

§ The Gemara returns to the halakhot of the mishna: One requests rain only immediately preceding the rainy season. The Sages assumed that requesting and mentioning are one and the same thing, and consequently they asked: Who is the tanna who taught this halakha? The Gemara answers that Rava said: It is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehoshua, who said that one mentions rain from the time of putting down the lulav, i.e., the Eighth Day of Assembly, which is indeed near the rainy season.

אמר ליה אביי: אפילו תימא רבי אליעזר — שאלה לחוד, והזכרה לחוד.

Abaye said to him: Even if you say that it is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer, who holds that one mentions rain from the first day of the festival of Sukkot, this ruling of the mishna can be explained by distinguishing between the two terms: Requesting is a discrete concept and mentioning is another discrete concept. In other words, even according to the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer, one begins to request rain just before the rainy season, on the Eighth Day of Assembly, whereas one starts to mention rain already on the first day of Sukkot.

ואיכא דאמרי: לימא

And some say a different version of this discussion: Let us say

רבי יהושע היא, דאמר משעת הנחתו?! אמר רבא: אפילו תימא רבי אליעזר — שאלה לחוד, והזכרה לחוד.

that our mishna is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehoshua, who said that one mentions rain from the time of putting the lulav down, from the Eighth Day of Assembly, and it is not in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer. Rava said: Even if you say that the ruling of the mishna is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer, one can explain this by distinguishing between the terms: Requesting is a distinct notion and mentioning is another distinct notion, even according to the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer.

רבי יהודה אומר: העובר לפני התיבה כו׳.

§ The mishna stated that Rabbi Yehuda says: With regard to the one who passes before the ark as prayer leader on the concluding Festival day of Sukkot, the Eighth Day of Assembly, the prayer leader of the additional prayer mentions rain, while the leader of the morning prayer does not. The reverse is the case at the conclusion of the period of mentioning rain, as the leader of the morning prayer mentions rain, while the one who leads the additional prayer does not.

ורמינהו: עד מתי שואלין את הגשמים, רבי יהודה אומר: עד שיעבור הפסח, רבי מאיר אומר: עד שיעבור ניסן.

And the Gemara raises a contradiction from a baraita (5a): Until when does one request rain? Rabbi Yehuda says: Until Passover has passed. Rabbi Meir says: Until the month of Nisan has passed. According to the baraita, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one prays for rain until the end of Passover, whereas the mishna states that Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion is that one prays for rain only until the beginning of the Festival.

אמר רב חסדא, לא קשיא: כאן לשאול, כאן להזכיר. מישאל — שאיל ואזיל, להזכיר — ביום טוב הראשון פסיק.

Rav Ḥisda said: This is not difficult. The baraita here is referring to the request for rain, which continues until the end of Passover, whereas the mishna there rules that one is to mention rain only until the first Festival day. In other words, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one continues requesting rain until the end of Passover, but with regard to the mention of rain, already on the first day of the Festival one ceases to do so.

אמר עולא: הא דרב חסדא קשיא כחמץ לשנים וכעשן לעינים. ומה במקום שאינו שואל — מזכיר, במקום ששואל, אינו דין שיהא מזכיר?

The Gemara raises a difficulty against this answer. Ulla said: That which Rav Ḥisda said is as difficult to accept “as vinegar to the teeth, and as smoke to the eyes” (Proverbs 10:26). He elaborates: If when one does not yet request rain, at the beginning of the rainy season, one nevertheless mentions rain; in a case when one requests rain, i.e., during Passover, according to this explanation, is it not right that one should also mention rain?

אלא אמר עולא: תרי תנאי אליבא דרבי יהודה.

Rather, Ulla said an alternative resolution: In fact, two tanna’im expressed different rulings in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. According to one tanna, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one both mentions and requests rain during Passover, whereas according to the other tanna, Rabbi Yehuda holds that one neither mentions nor requests rain after the morning prayer of the first day of Passover.

רב יוסף אמר: מאי ״עד שיעבור הפסח״ — עד שיעבור שליח צבור ראשון היורד ביום טוב ראשון של פסח.

The Gemara cites an additional resolution of the apparent contradiction. Rav Yosef said: What is the meaning of the phrase: Until Passover has passed [ya’avor]? It means: Until the first prayer leader who descends to pray has passed before the ark for the morning prayers on the first Festival day of Passover. According to this explanation, the mishna and baraita specify the same time period for the end of the mention and request for rain.

אמר ליה אביי: שאלה ביום טוב מי איכא?

Abaye said to Rav Yosef: Is there a request for rain on a Festival? The request for rain is included in the ninth blessing of the Amida, the blessing of the years, which is not recited on Shabbat and Festivals. If the term Passover in the baraita is referring to the entire Festival, this includes the intermediate Festival days, during which the ninth blessing of the Amida is recited. However, according to your interpretation, the baraita refers only to the first day of the Festival, and yet the request for rain is not recited on this date.

אמר ליה: אין שואל מתורגמן. וכי מתורגמן שואל דבר שאינו צריך לצבור? אלא מחוורתא, כדעולא.

The Gemara cites the response: Rav Yosef said to Abaye: Yes, the baraita is speaking of the first day of Passover. However, it does not refer to the request for rain recited in the Amida. Rather, the disseminator and translator of the Torah portion would recite a request for rain after the Festival prayers. The Gemara asks: But would a disseminator request a matter that the community does not need? As there is no need for rain on Passover, why would the disseminator recite a request for it? Rather, it is clear, as Ulla explained, there are two tannaitic versions of Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion.

רבה אמר: מאי ״עד שיעבור הפסח״ — עד שיעבור זמן שחיטת הפסח. וכתחילתו כן סופו: מה תחילתו — מזכיר אף על פי שאינו שואל,

Rabba said another explanation: What is the meaning of the phrase: Until Passover has passed? It means until after the time for the slaughter of the Paschal lamb has passed, the afternoon of the fourteenth of Nisan, i.e., until the beginning of Passover. And according to this opinion, the practice at the beginning of the time for praying for rain is like that of the end: Just as at the beginning of the rainy season one mentions rain although one does not request it, so too, at the end, on the first day of Passover, one mentions rain although one does not request it. The request for rain ends on the eve of Passover, while the mention of rain continues until the morning service the following day.

אף סופו — מזכיר אף על פי שאינו שואל.

אמר ליה אביי: בשלמא תחילתו מזכיר — הזכרה נמי ריצוי שאלה היא, אלא סופו, מאי ריצוי שאלה איכא? אלא מחוורתא כדעולא.

Abaye said to Rabba: Granted, at the beginning of the rainy season one mentions rain before requesting it, as mentioning rain is also an appeasement to God in advance of the forthcoming request. However, at the end of the season, what appeasement toward a request is there that would necessitate the mention of rain after one has ceased requesting it? The Gemara again concludes: Rather, it is clear as Ulla explained.

אמר רבי אסי אמר רבי יוחנן: הלכה כרבי יהודה. אמר ליה רבי זירא לרבי אסי: ומי אמר רבי יוחנן הכי? והתנן: בשלשה במרחשוון שואלין את הגשמים,

Rabbi Asi said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: The halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. Rabbi Zeira said to Rabbi Asi: And did Rabbi Yoḥanan actually say that? But didn’t we learn in a mishna (6a): On the third of Marḥeshvan one starts to request rain. Rabban Gamliel says: One starts on the seventh of Marḥeshvan. And with regard to this mishna, Rabbi Elazar, Rabbi Yoḥanan’s preeminent student, said: The halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Rabban Gamliel.

רבן גמליאל אומר: בשבעה בו. ואמר רבי אלעזר: הלכה כרבן גמליאל!

אמר ליה: גברא אגברא קא רמית?! איבעית אימא, לא קשיא: כאן לשאול, כאן להזכיר.

Rabbi Asi said to Rabbi Zeira: Are you raising a contradiction from the statement of one man against the statement of another man? Although Rabbi Elazar was Rabbi Yoḥanan’s student, their opinions need not be consistent with one another. If you wish, say instead that this is not difficult, as Rabbi Elazar’s ruling here is referring to the request for rain, which begins on the seventh of Marḥeshvan, whereas Rabbi Yoḥanan’s ruling there is referring to the mention of rain, which begins on the Eighth Day of Assembly.

והאמר רבי יוחנן: במקום ששואל מזכיר! ההוא להפסקה איתמר. והאמר רבי יוחנן: התחיל להזכיר — מתחיל לשאול, פסק מלשאול — פוסק מלהזכיר.

The Gemara asks: But didn’t Rabbi Yoḥanan say: At the same time when one requests rain, one mentions it. The Gemara answers: That ruling was stated only with regard to ceasing the request and mention of rain. Although Rabbi Yoḥanan maintains that one stops requesting and mentioning rain on the same date, he does not hold that one begins to do both at the same time. The Gemara objects: But didn’t Rabbi Yoḥanan explicitly say: When one begins to mention rain, one begins to request it; and when one ceases to request rain, one ceases to mention it. This clearly indicates that, in his opinion, there is no discrepancy between the dates when one begins reciting the two formulations.

אלא, לא קשיא: הא לן, הא להו. מאי שנא לדידן — דאית לן פירי בדברא, לדידהו נמי אית להו עולי רגלים!

The Gemara answers: Rather, it is not difficult. This statement, where Rabbi Elazar ruled in accordance with the opinion of Rabban Gamliel, is for us, who live in Babylonia and start to pray for rain later, whereas that statement of the mishna is for them, the residents of Eretz Yisrael. The Gemara asks: What is different with regard to us in Babylonia that we do not request rain immediately after Sukkot? The reason is that we still have fruit in the field. Therefore, we do not want rain to fall. However, they, the inhabitants of Eretz Yisrael, also have pilgrims who need to travel for a significant time to reach their homes after the Festival, and they do not want it to rain on them.

כי קאמר רבי יוחנן, בזמן שאין בית המקדש קיים. השתא דאתית להכי — הא והא לדידהו, ולא קשיא: כאן בזמן שבית המקדש קיים,

The Gemara answers: When Rabbi Yoḥanan said this ruling in the mishna, he was referring to the period when the Temple is not standing; therefore, in Eretz Yisrael, one can immediately request rain. The Gemara comments: Now that you have arrived at this answer, one can say that both this statement and that statement are for them, i.e., those in Eretz Yisrael. And yet, it is not difficult, as this statement here, that one waits before requesting rain, applies at the time when the Temple is standing, while the ruling there, that one requests rain right after the Festival, is referring to the time when the Temple is not standing.

כאן בזמן שאין בית המקדש קיים.

ואנן דאית לן תרי יומי, היכי עבדינן? אמר רב: מתחיל במוספין, ופוסק במנחה ערבית ושחרית, וחוזר במוספין.

The Gemara asks: And we in the Diaspora who have two Festival days, how do we act with regard to beginning the mention of rain, given the uncertainty concerning the Eighth Day of Assembly, which might in reality be the seventh day of Sukkot? The Gemara answers that Rav said: One begins to mention rain in the additional prayers of the eighth day, the first day of the Eighth Day of Assembly. And one temporarily ceases this practice on the afternoon prayer of the eighth day, continuing through the evening and morning prayers of the ninth day, the second day of the Eighth Day of Assembly. And finally one again resumes mentioning rain in the additional prayers of the ninth day, Simḥat Torah.

אמר להו שמואל, פוקו ואמרו ליה לאבא: אחר שעשיתו קודש תעשהו חול? אלא אמר שמואל: מתחיל במוספין ובמנחה, ופוסק ערבית ושחרית, וחוזר ומתחיל במוספין.

Shmuel said to those who reported Rav’s explanation to him: Go out and tell Abba, referring to Rav by his name, the following objection: After you have rendered the first day of the Eighth Day of Assembly sanctified, shall you defile it by treating it as though it is not a Festival day? Rather, Shmuel said (10a): One begins to mention rain in the additional prayers and also mentions it in the afternoon prayer of the eighth day, the first day of the Eighth Day of Assembly, and temporarily ceases this practice on the afternoon prayer of the eighth day, continuing through the evening and morning prayers of the ninth day, Simḥat Torah. And finally, one again resumes mentioning rain in the additional prayers of the ninth day, Simḥat Torah.